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Curatolo

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  I wanted to make an observation about abortion, but somehow it did not seem to belong in the "40 Days of Lent" thread, so I started this one.  This morning on CNN there was a report of a baby born prematurely at 22 weeks, weighing 10 ounces.  The baby is now 4 pounds, and going home, although it may still have some respiratory problems.    These issues of inside the mother vs outside the mother, and early stage vs late stage abortion, are just getting more complicated. 

 

  I am conflicted and ambivalent.  I have no absolute answers but some opinions.  I think that abortion should only occur very early after conception in those situations where something unusual and clearcut has happened, e.g. a rape.  I can see that there may be other situations almost as clearcut as the rape situation.  The test is whether the situation is very obvious right from the beginning.  As gestation goes on, I think that abortion should only be allowed when the mother's life is in grave danger.  Her decision, not ours.  This is reminiscent of the "situational ethics" exercises we did in religion class at MCHS (junior year?).  You are hanging from a cliff, and your friend is hanging from your feet.  If you kick him off, you will be able to climb to safety.  If you do not kick him off, you will both fall and die.  I don't care what someone says the right answer is, I leave it up to the person in the situation to make the decision, and support the decision of someone in such an untenable situation. 

 

  But an abortion so someone can complete college on time - doesn't seem right to me.

 

  The morning-after pill is in my opinion a wonderful medical advance which should help this confusing situation.  It should be available to anyone without a prescription, regardless of age, and regardless of parental permission. A pharmacy should only sell one per patient per visit.

 

Bill '66

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Reply with quote  #2 
Bill,
1) Thank you for being more thread honest than the rest of us.
2) Thank you for being conflicted instead of dead sure on something so fraught with nuances and possibilities.
3) You are right that the event yesterday shifted the potential debate on when is viability which was the criteria for the Supreme Court Roe V. Wade.
4) Thank you for a very thoughful start of the thread and since I have weighed in on this one, I will wait so as not to repeat myself.
Barry


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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #3 
When I went to OU the Engineers Club had an annual fete which included the election of The Engineers Queen (the usual "beauty contest with a few twists").
My buddy was running one of the campaigns for a girl Michelle who he was very interested in at the time (I thought she was a dog) and talked me into being assistant campaign manager. It was pointed out that she was well connected in that her father was the DA for Dallas and might help should one get busted at the OU/Texas weekend.

He became better know in later years. His name was Henry WADE, of Roe V. Wade.


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TerrencePTuffyLSA69

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Reply with quote  #4 
Billy, we all went through this before; "Terrance Tuffy on Abortion" remember? That thread is still available.

I think anyone considering an abortion must see National Geographic's "IN THE WOMB" before the procedure. It will certainly make them think twice before committing the act.

Lastly, why must the innocent and most vulnerable among us suffer a death sentence for the indiscretion of others?

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:

I think anyone considering an abortion must see National Geographic's "IN THE WOMB" before the procedure. It will certainly make them think twice before committing the act.


As I have stated before, I am pro choice but against abortion. There are many consequences to sex besides a good time (and I am sure not putting that down) and people have to look at the reality of the situation. Without protection you risk serious consequences. Pregnancy and abortion are part of that reality. I agree that I think it dehumanizing to be a party to an abortion. That is why people have to be sexually responsible. Sensible sex education tells the whole truth without editorializing. Then people listen and can make informed decisions.
If one wants to overlay religious morality onto the issue that is seperate from the health issues. One may question the existance of god but pregnancy and possible VD are definite realities, just as are premarital sex and extra marital sex.


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TerrencePTuffyLSA69

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Reply with quote  #6 
So Barry, I'll ask you, up or down on Roe v Wade? Or is
Quote:
I am pro choice but against abortion
a Kerryism?

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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #7 
Roe v. Wade ...thumbs up
I would have used the emoticon but such a cheery thumbs up on a sad subject is not appropriate.


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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #8 

I had just posted this over at the Lenten Tome, but being a team player I'll move it here.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b

John,
You point up anomalies like what if the fetus is born and survives etc. This is why the Supreme Court did the Soloman thing and determined that viability outside the womb based on current medical standards was a reasonable COMPROMISE.
Are you protecting YOUR sperm? Remember they contain the full code to make another life! Where do you draw the line? Whose life/body is it? Glad you are prochoice on gun control. You would rather let people kill ADULTS in malls than reduce the level of violence insociety. How very nonlinear you are. But you will be there to protect them frozen embryos!
Barry

Since many pro-abortionists insist that a baby is nothing but a fetus until it been delivered from the womb, as you seem to be saying, then everyone who has survived their birth is a “fetus born and survived etc.” Where is the anomaly in what I site? A baby born well within the period that abortions are tolerated survives and thrives to the extent that she is released home, still with in the gestational time period that an abortion would be ‘acceptable.’

 

The fact that medical science advances have made 'fetuses' more viable at earlier stages of their development in no way alters when 'human life' is bestowed. Medical science has nothing to do with that. Surely that can't be argued.

 

How many ‘fetuses’ of the millions aborted, do your think in the normal course of nature would be living, indisputable, human beings had they not been aborted? If not human life, then the normal fetus will, without manipulation or attention of any kind undeniably ‘evolve’ into a human life. Delivery from the womb seems rather insignificant to that evolution. 

 

What difference is there if a mother decides to ‘terminate’ an infant after birth, one that at the time is still totally dependent on that mother. The baby in the womb was no more dependent on the mother yet then it was only the mother’s decision. So what difference is there as to “whose life/body is it” because it is a minute pre delivery vs. a minute post delivery?

 

On my pro-choice, statistics show that owners of legally registered guns use those guns in defense of life and property, without anyone being killed; exponentially more often then legal guns injure anyone.  Also, where ‘right to carry’ laws are passed violent crime drops off. Can you site any shooting in a mall or anywhere else where the guns used were properly registered?

 

I’m sure a world traveler like you is aware that just about every able body man in Switzerland has a properly registered fully automatic assault rifle in his home. It’s not the availability of legal guns that’s the problem it’s the criminals.

 

School choice undeniably helps the children who are able to exercise it, especially in the so many FAILED public school systems serving the inner cities.


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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:

The fact that medical science advances have made 'fetuses' more viable at earlier stages of their development in no way alters when 'human life' is bestowed. Medical science has nothing to do with that. Surely that can't be argued.



You are right. It is not a medical question but a philosophical one.  Such as that it can have many answers. One of those answers could be at conception which is a significant point one must admit. But then, what are we doing making such a big deal about a single cell. Even nature is likely to cast it off as a failed pregnancy.

Our decision on where to take over the private rights to a person's body (pregnant woman) has to be balanced with the rights of the unborn which may be no more than an egg.

There is the religious arguement, which has no standing (IMHO) in a court of law. Then there is the philosophical one which may be used to decide where the line be drawn.

Perhaps limiting the possibility of abortion to the first tri-mester puts a reasonable burden on the woman. I do not know. But it is worth considering.

On the other comments:
1) OFF TOPIC - be nice to Bill who started this thread.
2) Gun control - maybe we need it because Americans can not be trusted with firearms (sttart a topic if you like)
3) School Choice - complex issue but if you can opt out of your school i want to opt out of paying at all! (start a topic)


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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #10 

Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b

On the other comments:
1) OFF TOPIC - be nice to Bill who started this thread.
2) Gun control - maybe we need it because Americans can not be trusted with firearms (sttart a topic if you like)
3) School Choice - complex issue but if you can opt out of your school i want to opt out of paying at all! (start a topic)

 

Since this is the ABORTION thread I'll only respond on guns and school???? And I've got to.

 

Barry you've repeatably said you're a 'constitutionalists' (definitely not a constructionist) How do you square that with excessive gun controls abrogating the only affirmatively stated right by the in the Bill of Rights?

 

Re school,  if a student opts out of the PUBLIC school system why can't  a portion of the money that would have been spent on that education be allocated to the accredited institution the student chooses. The public system would actually then have little more money for their other students?

 


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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #11 
John,
I said start new topics and you are perfectly capable of challenging my beleifs there.
Barry


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Reply with quote  #12 

Wow, guns and abortion, two of my favorite topics. I'll leave guns for another day.

 

Either you believe a fetus is a person or you do not. Viability outside the womb is circumstantial.

 

At the risk of being declared dishonest, I believe a fetus is a person. Therefore, abortion is murder. Every time.

 

I do not judge anyone who has had an abortion. Our culture has successfully convinced several generations of women that there is no viable alternative to abortion. Weak minds go where they are led. My friends who are very active in the right to life movement are excoriated for even suggesting there is a viable alternative.

 

I remember when it was an insult to call someone an abortionist.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcolarco
Wow, guns and abortion, two of my favorite topics. I'll leave guns for another day.

 

Either you believe a fetus is a person or you do not. Viability outside the womb is circumstantial.

 

At the risk of being declared dishonest, I believe a fetus is a person. Therefore, abortion is murder. Every time.

 

I do not judge anyone who has had an abortion. Our culture has successfully convinced several generations of women that there is no viable alternative to abortion. Weak minds go where they are led. My friends who are very active in the right to life movement are excoriated for even suggesting there is a viable alternative.

 

I remember when it was an insult to call someone an abortionist.

 

  

Barry introduced abortion on to the School Choice thread, so I posted a response there.

 

I agree with you 100%. Abortion is homicide, sometimes, but rarely justifiable, and certainly not to maintain a life  style.


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TonyCasamento69

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcolarco

I do not judge anyone who has had an abortion. ...Weak minds go where they are led.



Not judgmental?

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Tony Casamento '69


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Reply with quote  #15 

Tony,

 

Not judgmental at all. I'm giving women who have abortions an out. Popular culture tells us we are not really responsible for our actions. It's too hard to decide what is right, so let someone else decide for you. That someone else can be the government, your doctor, Hillary, Oprah, or anyone you choose, as long as it is not you. We now have a couple of generations of people who have been raised to believe this. So I cannot judge someone who truly believes she has no choice. "Pro-choice" is really "no-choice." Just try to tell a liberal there are alternatives to abortion if you don't believe me.

 

But I rant.

 

By the way, the quote window at the bottom of the screen had the following entry:

 

"I didn't do it, no one saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!"


Bart Simpson (7)

 

Wasn't it really Mario Cuomo who said that? I forget the context.

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