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Reply with quote  #46 

Oh, I do think there are some people who are "for" abortion. At least some of the doctors who perform abortions are in it simply for the money. How do I know? I asked a few of them. Some were evasive, but a small number admitted abortions are their livelihood. Chilling. How objective is their advice likely to be?

It's a big-bucks business. A million or so abortions a year, at better than $500 each (I'm guessing), and you do the math.

 

Well, my dentist wants to fill my mouth with crowns, and the guy who services my pickup says I should change the fuel filter every oil change because I live at 7000 feet. Not much difference, I guess..................

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcapela
With reference to this thread on the topic of abortion.....  personally, I do not think anyone is really for abortions..... I would like to get all of thise individuals on both sides of this issue to direct their effort not so much at overturning Roe v Wade, but working more towards developing programs to eliminate the need for abortions..... they should focus more on redcuing the numbers of abortions.... and that might include education and support programs for single parents, etc.

 

It is just that we should be more proactive instead of reactive......

 

John,

 

Studies show that the vast majority of abortions are preformed to accommodate the mother's lifestyle. With all the birth control available today, the means to eliminate those abortions, the vast majority, exists today. Don't conceive a life! 

 

It's hard to imagine what more can be done, to stop these abortions of CHOICE, other than try to change the mores of the country. As Rich has said earlier on this thread, abortion is just too available and too accepted by our society. 

 

While I agree no one starts out hoping to windup aborting child, there is no dissuasion from society and this. serious, irreversible, life altering act is too often too easy. Again an example, a tragic example of today's manta of no personal responsibility


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Reply with quote  #48 
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A million or so abortions a year, at better than $500 each (I'm guessing), and you do the math.


I think doctors who do abortions are either poorly qualified to do other proceedures or dedicated to the principle of choice. $500 is mice nuts considering what they might have to go through. I bet there is no single profile of a doctor who performs them.

Everything is distilled to slogans and catch words. fetus - unborn, pro- choice pro life but the reality is there is a continuum from sperm and egg to human baby. Drawing concrete and absolute positions leaves one open to attack from the other equally volatile side. I can not define a single cell egg as a human with inalienable rights that trump the rights of the fully recognisable human required to support same. Somewhere there is a non-religious and reasonable definition of compromise.

As I have said before, those who see absolutes in this issue ignore the dignity of the human being...the mother OR the fetus/child.


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Reply with quote  #49 
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It's hard to imagine what more can be done, to stop these abortions of CHOICE, other than try to change the mores of the country. As Rich has said earlier on this thread, abortion is just too available and too accepted by our society.


I do see hope, as federal and state legislation moves toward more restrictive abortion policy. I also see many of our Protestant brothers and sisters moving into the light of life and saying abortion is wrong.

In addition, I think that after the American Episcopal Church (aka Catholic Lite) has been told to amend some of it's more liberal policies and to come back in line with the rest of the Anglican community - we'll see some change coming from that sector.

I continue to pray



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Reply with quote  #50 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKerins66

 

Studies show that the vast majority of abortions are preformed to accommodate the mother's lifestyle. With all the birth control available today, the means to eliminate those abortions, the vast majority, exists today. Don't conceive a life! 

 

It's hard to imagine what more can be done, to stop these abortions of CHOICE, other than try to change the mores of the country. As Rich has said earlier on this thread, abortion is just too available and too accepted by our society. 

 

While I agree no one starts out hoping to windup aborting child, there is no dissuasion from society and this. serious, irreversible, life altering act is too often too easy. Again an example, a tragic example of today's manta of no personal responsibility

[/QUOTE

Agree with your comment "don't conceive a life".... however when people talk about bringing many of these topics into the classroom, they get challenged and everything simply gets swept under the rug......  I just think we are doing something wrong....

 

The key to a lot of this... is that both sides should work together to look for ways to reduce the number of abortions....   create alternatives.....  I really believe the law will not change.... no matter what happens with the Supreme Court.....  if Roe v Wade were overturned, it would simply revert back to the states and certain states would pass their own laws, and then you would have paople going all over the place.....

 

Again.....  we should focus on what we can do as a group to reduce the number of abortions..... and eventually they will be an alternative of last choice....

 


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Reply with quote  #51 

John, an alternative exists today. It is adoption (and foster care). I can't tell you how sad it is to see a woman reject having a baby because she can't bear to think of the baby living with someone else. Yet she can't see that her decision to terminate the pregnancy is based only on her own selfishness. This is what the culture of death does to us.

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Reply with quote  #52 
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This is what the culture of death does to us.


Rich,

Where did you get that one from? I see culture of death in the arm merchants. I see it in the war profiteers.I see it in those that see war as a solution to everything. I see it in those that glorify assault weapons. I don't see it here at all.

I agreed with you totally up until that point. Part of the issue here is that it is easier to give up what you don't see than what you do see. A full born child will be recognizable. A fertilized egg is not. That is why I have always been conflicted on the issue and not very tolerant of those who total doctrinaire surety on either side of it.

There are many personal rights exercised by people that I do not agree with. I can not be thier arbiter. I do not think removing Roe V. Wade is good governance. It may need some further definition but I can not go along with something drastic like reversal.




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Reply with quote  #53 
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Where did you get that one from? I see culture of death in the arm merchants. I see it in the war profiteers.I see it in those that see war as a solution to everything. I see it in those that glorify assault weapons.I don't see it here at all.

The culture of death is all you say and includes abortion, euthanasia, suicide etc. etc.

Quote:
I agreed with you totally up until that point. Part of the issue here is that it is easier to give up what you don't see than what you do see. A full born child will be recognizable.

The kid on CNN was recognizable at 22 weeks.

Quote:
A fertilized egg is not.

Barry, at what point, how many weeks along, would you object to abortion?

Quote:
That is why I have always been conflicted on the issue and not very tolerant of those who total doctrinaire surety on either side of it.

Barry you lost me here. You are not tolerant of those on either side of the issue? Or, you're just not tolerant of those who loudly disagree with your position? There are only two results - life or death. Or, is what you mean that abortions should not be allowed past a certain time, like by the end of the first trimester?


Quote:
There are many personal rights exercised by people that I do not agree with. I can not be thier arbiter.

So you do what about it? Nothing? I mean, this is not like an annoyance.

Quote:
I do not think removing Roe V. Wade is good governance. It may need some further definition but I can not go along with something drastic like reversal.

Pro-choice lobby objects to any volte-face.

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Reply with quote  #54 
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The culture of death is all you say and includes abortion, euthanasia, suicide etc. etc.


Add up all the causes of death above and it will pale compared to deaths by war, starvation, and firearms.
The right to take ones own life when disease or disability makes it undesireable is a reasonable right.
We went to war in Iraq causing huge deaths of those that did not want to die. We execute people by capital punishment (contrary to Church teachings), some of which are later innocent. But the legitimization of state sponsored murder reduces the value of human life. These are cognescent humans, not embryos.

Quote:
Barry, at what point, how many weeks along, would you object to abortion?


This is a valid question for which I have not formed an opinion yet.

Quote:

Barry you lost me here. You are not tolerant of those on either side of the issue? Or, you're just not tolerant of those who loudly disagree with your position? There are only two results - life or death. Or, is what you mean that abortions should not be allowed past a certain time, like by the end of the first trimester?


I am not tolerant of those who are so sure of thier absolute side of the issue. Be it prochoice no matter what or prolife no matter what.

If abortions were made illegal they would just be less safe and less convenient. I am trying to understand what you propose as well. Would you ban physician assisted death? You would make the person suffer for some divine yet unproven reason? What rights over individuals do you assume you have the right to enforce?

I recognise there is a problem with abortion, I just don't see you proposing a real solution. We are not a theocracy, we are a diverse society with person liberties as our foundation so anything you propose must (IMHO) respect that diversity and liberty.

Quote:

So you do what about it? Nothing? I mean, this is not like an annoyance.


I agree. However the best place to stop it is in the beginning. I know you would push abstinence, which  you are more than welcome to propose and you can swim up stream against the flow of adolescent testosterone (wish I had some of that now), BUT the morning after pill, birth control , education about the truth about sex w/o the myths are things that will likely be more successful. Distribution of condoms and sex education in schools sends a message that this is and important thing that you must be aware of (as a teen).
Too often I see a message that there should be real consequences to sex (pregnancy, HIV, HPV) from "church" types. Like if condoms , vaccines or birth control are taken away you teens will get the consequences you deserve....now THAT is a positive loving  message  isn't it?

This is why I am always suspicious of religious inputs for social morality.


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Reply with quote  #55 

Abortions and firearms deaths:

 

From the CDC:

 

"In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004) This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, but has since declined steadily.(CDC, 2001) However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2004)."

 

Number of abortions? I don't know. A million a year is bandied about.

 

Interesting that the CDC does not consider abortion "one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S." Seems like abortion kills more people than firearms.

 

Some of the homicides and suicides would likely not occur if a firearm was unavailable. Some would. Proportion? Impossible to estimate.

 

I wonder how many mothers die as a result of abortion. Anyone know?

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Reply with quote  #56 
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This is a valid question for which I have not formed an opinion yet.


Now Barry, this one question is central to this thread, without going off on tangents like Iraq, capital punishment, gun control, free speech, birth control and Darfur. Because you have hesitated, that maybe an indication that you are not in favor of partial birth abortion. I could describe the procedure if needed, but, I think no one here would want me to. I need to know how much you support Roe v Wade so we can continue to narrow this down. 8 months? 7 months? viable outside the womb? I mean this has been going on since 1973 - you must have thought about it.



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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #57 

Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b
Quote:
The culture of death is all you say and includes abortion, euthanasia, suicide etc. etc.


Add up all the causes of death above and it will pale compared to deaths by war, starvation, and firearms.
 

I will try not to restate or obfuscate your statement. But you observation certainly doesn’t hold water based on US facts.

 

The following is the most recent information I can find. Sorry that information for one specific year isn’t available.

  

According to the CDC (based on voluntarily supplied data) there were at least 848,163 abortions in 03. Again from the CDC, in 04 there were 2,398,365 deaths with the 15 leading causes accounting for 1,979,555. Fourteen of those causes were diseases with ‘accidents (unintentional injuries) accounting for 108,694. So, ‘all other causes’ came to 418,810. Even if we assume that all the accidents involved firearms and ‘all other causes’ only encompassed ‘war and starvation,’ that only comes to 2/3 the number of abortions. Even you can’t believe that 848,163 deaths ‘will pale compared to’ 527,504; let alone the certainly much, much lower number attributable to war, starvation and guns.

 

I doubt world wide figures would be any more supportive of you claim.

 

Again from the CIA World Book, the world population in 2006 was 6,525,170,264 with a death rate of 8.67 per 1,000 or 56,573,226. The UN estimated in 2002 that 50,000,000 abortions are performed each year. The Alan Guttmacher Institute, and several others, also estimate there are  50,000,000 abortions annually.

 

If we assume EVERYBODY who died in 2006 died from “war, starvation, and firearms,” would 50 million abortions PALE compared to 56.5 million non-abortion deaths? 

 

 

Bye the way,

Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b
The right to take ones own life when disease or disability makes it undesireable is a reasonable right.
 

I believe it’s neither reasonable nor a recognized right. Like you statement above on abortion, just because you say it's do don't make it so.


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Reply with quote  #58 
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I believe it’s neither reasonable nor a recognized right. Like you statement above on abortion, just because you say it's do don't make it so.



If you do not have control over your own existance, what more basic right can a human being have? Since when should governments have such power over you.

Just because YOU say it is not true does not invalidate it either.


Terry,

Venturing an opinion about where to draw the line on abortion should be undertaken with more study. I would neither reduce limits set by RvW, nor protect embryos. That leaves two end points widely seperated. To further limit them I would say that the decision would be based at least in part on the following:
1) Does it provide a reasonable window for the woman to understand that she is pregnant,
2) Understand and seriously consider the consequences of any decision and seek reasonable counsel
3) Time to find a source for abortion if that is the decision.
4) Fetal development short of viability out side the womb.

That no doubt leaves a lot of room time wise to draw a line. What we are doing is compromising between two absolute human rights that are in conflict: right to ones own body, aand the right to live. There are compromises but not solutions.


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Reply with quote  #59 
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right to ones own body, aand the right to live.


Which one should prevail?

I think a right to life must come before a right to ones own body. Only makes sense - ya gotta have life before you can have a body. It also comes first in the Constitution.

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Reply with quote  #60 
Both have to be respected.....this is why the Solomans decision of Roe.

Barry


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