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tom70

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Reply with quote  #31 
Sammy , I posted his stats , I'm not saying he wasn't an all time great. The point is his legacy is his stats. He played his last game Sept 17 1917 . His totals are over a 21 year career. Stat wise Arod (after 14 seasons) projects out ( barring injury) to be the greatest player of all time. This is by your measuring stick ( the stats) Re-Read my other posts. You didn't join the discussion you just added more trimming. I'm not denying or disputing your facts or stats , I'm disputing your conclusion . Honus Wagner was the greatest shortstop of his time ( again based on stats) Then you have to agree that Arod will be the greatest player of all time .

Honus Wagner's Stats over 21 seasons.

Did play 1b, 2b ,3b ,ss ,OF and pitched . Did compile the following stats,
.327 lifetime BA.   .391 OB%  .466 slugging  3,415 hits   1,732 RBI's 
10,430 AB's  101 homers  2,792 games .



On the same note . Frank Home Run Baker  led the AL in Homers four times.
1911 , 1912 , 1913, 1914, with 11,10,12, and 9, the following year he again hit 10. He was the greatest Home Run Hitter of his era thus the nick name Home Run Baker. He hit 96 for his career does he belong on the list as one of the greatest home run hitters of all time ?    



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RussellDoucetteof73

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Reply with quote  #32 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom70
  Frank "Home Run" Baker  led the AL in Homers four times. 1911 , 1912 , 1913, 1914, with 11,10,12, and 9, the following year he again hit 10. He was the greatest Home Run Hitter of his era thus the nick name Home Run Baker. 

I've always wondered how Baker would have done if he played during the 1920s when the baseball was considered more lively?


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JanetP67

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Reply with quote  #33 

Just heard Lastings Milledge was traded to Washington for a catcher and outfielder, but don't know names.

JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #34 
No, Home Run Baker is not one of the greatest home
run hitters of all-time, just as Roger Conner (the 19th
century home run hitter and the all-time leader until
Ruth broke his record) doesn't hold that honor, either.
The live ball era has changed the home run statistic.
It is why we only consider Home Run hitters starting
with Ruth, Gehrig, and Jimmie Foxx as truly greats.
But hits are still hits, so Wagner ranks as my best
shortstop for hitting over 3,000 with a great BA, etc.
Whether ARod passes Wagner, and becomes not
only the greatest Shortstop, but possibly the greatest
third baseman, only time will tell.
 
SAMMY67
 
JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #35 
Janet:
 
It's outfielder Ryan Church (.271, 15 HR) and catcher
Brian Schneider.  It looks like Johnny Estrada might
not be wearing a Mets uniform, after all!!
 
SAMMY67
tom70

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Reply with quote  #36 
Ok Sammy point taken and given. Lets keep it going one more round.

24 seasons - 3,562 games  - 746 doubles - 135 triples - 160 hrs - 1,503 rbi's
2,165 runs - 1,566 walks - 4,256 hits  - 5,929 times on base -

16 time All star  -  Rookie of the Year  - N.L. MVP  -  WS MVP -

All Star 1b  2b  3b  OF  - Gold Glove winner OF - World Series Champ 3 times
N.L. Batting Champion 3 times.

Where do these stats rate this guy on the all time lists ?  

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tom70

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Reply with quote  #37 

Brian Schneider a pretty good defensive catcher with a little pop. Bats left handed  will share time with Ramon Castro ( Bats Right) . Johnny Estrada will never put on a Met uniform. Ryan Church was a decent left fielder. Right field is a lot differant. Move a guy from right to left ok , left to right not as easy. I really thought Endie was going to platoon there with Gomez with Ben Johnson getting some caddy work. I don't see where Ryan Church fits in . Marlon Anderson is your left handed pinch hitter coming off the bench , who needs a start once in awhile to stay sharp. beltran plays everyday and Alou will play as much as he can . ( Protection in the order for 3 - 4 - 5 ) Guess Ben Johnson , Endy and or Gomez is to be included in the trade package for a pitcher.   


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RussellDoucetteof73

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDavis
No, Home Run Baker is not one of the greatest home
run hitters of all-time. The live ball era has changed the home run statistic.
It is why we only consider Home Run hitters starting
with Ruth, Gehrig, and Jimmie Foxx as truly greats.

 
I wonder how Baker would have done if he was playing along with Ruth, Gehrig and Jimmy Foxx during the lively ball ERA.
 
Likewise, how would Ruth, Gehrig and Jimmy Foxx have done if they played with Baker during the dead ball ERA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDavis
 Wagner ranks as my best

shortstop for hitting over 3,000 with a great BA.

 
That's what a hot stove league is for. To spend time arguing who's better than who.
Just keep it as a friendly discussion and realise there is no definate answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDavis
Whether A-Rod passes Wagner, and becomes not
only the greatest Shortstop, but possibly the greatest third baseman, only time will tell.

Another discussion for another hot stove league session. Looks like it'll be an interesting winter! 


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JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #39 
OK Tom: You're talking about Pete Rose, who in 24 years had a lifetime BA of .303 with 15 .300+ seasons.
Let's compare him to the person who is most associated
with his records: Ty Cobb.
 
Cobb, in his 24 seasons, batted .366 with 23 .300+ seasons.   He hit 117 HRs compared to Rose's 160 HRs,
but played most of his career in the dead-ball era.
Cobb also had 892 Stolen Bases; Rose had 198.
Cobb was almost exclusively an outfielder, but Rose
excelled at four positions. 
 
Do I think Rose was a better hitter than Cobb?
No, Cobb was by far the better hitter for average,
and he also had better base running ability. Neither
were sluggers; instead, they were fine, consistant
hitters.  But Rose, because of his talent at four
positions was the better all-around ballplayer. 

I put Rose in my top ten position players of all time,
and yes, he belongs in the Hall of Fame:
1. Babe Ruth
2. Willie Mays
3. Ted Williams
4. Hank Aaron
5. Ty Cobb
6. Pete Rose
7. Joe DiMaggio
8. Honus Wagner
9. Stan Musial
10. Mickey Mantle
 
Mentions (Honorable or Otherwise): Barry Bonds,
Shoeless Joe Jackson, Josh Gibson, Alex Rodriguez.
 
SAMMY67
 
 
 
 

JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #40 
Add to Mentions: Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott,
Bill Terry & Roy Campanella.
 
SAMMY67
tom70

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Reply with quote  #41 

Throw Yogi in and I'd have a hard time disputing anyone on your list !


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JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #42 
Tom,
 
It was a toss-up between Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella.  I took Campy because of his success
in the Negro Leagues as both a catcher and first baseman.  He played first often when he was on
the same teams as Josh Gibson.  But, of course,
Yogi played in the outfield.  I'd take either one,
on my team, anyday.
 
SAMMY67
 
tom70

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Reply with quote  #43 
    Baseball and Ballantine ! The Big "E" lights up on the Rheingold scoreboard !  That was a Ballentine Blast ! Pabst Blue Ribbon !!! 

To Red and Mel , Scooter and Murph This ones for you !!!

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RussellDoucetteof73

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Reply with quote  #44 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDavis
 
Do I think Rose was a better hitter than Cobb?

I put Rose in my top ten position players of all time,
and yes, he belongs in the Hall of Fame:

Sounds like (at least) 2 discussion for the Hot Stove League this winter.


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tom70

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Reply with quote  #45 
Ty Cobb  24 seasons. 3,035 games -  11,434 ab's -  4,189 hits -  2,246 runs
                              724 2b's   295 3b's    117 hrs  1937 rbi's  1249 walks
                               lifetime . 366 avg  - .433 ob%   - .512% slugging
                              5,854 total bases  892 steals   stole 96 in one season  

 Pete Rose

24 seasons - 3,562 games  - 746 doubles - 135 triples - 160 hrs - 1,503 rbi's
2,165 runs - 1,566 walks - 4,256 hits  - 5,929 times on base -



The Georgia Peach  or Charley Hustle ?????????????????????

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