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tom70

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Reply with quote  #61 

Juan Marichal vs. John Roseboro (Dodgers vs. Giants, Aug. 22, 1965)
No love was lost between the Giants and Dodgers during the heated pennant race of 1965. Marichal, facing Sandy Koufax at Candlestick Park, knocked down Maury Wills and Ron Fairly with brushback pitches before he came to the plate in the third inning. Koufax wouldn't retaliate, but his catcher, John Roseboro, would.

"When Marichal came up to bat, I tried a knockdown from behind the plate, throwing the ball close to his nose when I returned it to the pitcher," recalled Roseboro. "I expected Marichal to attack me in some way. If he had said anything to me, I had studied karate, and I was ready to annihilate him."

The karate didn't help. When another of Roseboro's throws came too close to Marichal's ear, Marichal clubbed Roseboro on the head with his bat, opening up a two-inch gash that would require 14 stitches and starting a bench-clearing brawl that lasted 14 minutes. Marichal was handed an eight-game suspension and fined $1,750, a huge sum in those days.


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RussellDoucetteof73

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Reply with quote  #62 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom70

Rickey was the G.M. O'Malley was the owner . I'm sure Rickey didn't make a move that big without consulting with ownership.


When I read about Robinson getting signed by Richey, I've never heard mention about O'Malley during talks.

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TerrencePTuffyLSA69

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Reply with quote  #63 
So, we just keep perpetuating "Let him into the Hall of Fame because others did worse.".
When does it stop? When will no mean no?

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tom70

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Reply with quote  #64 

Juan Marichal vs. John Roseboro
Roseboro should have used Daniel LaRusso's crane technique.
Marichal and Roseboro became friends years later -- Roseboro (and others) believed that Marichal wasn't getting elected to the Hall of Fame because of that incident. "There were no hard feelings on my part, and I thought if that was made public, people would believe that this was really over with," said Roseboro. "So I saw him at a Dodger old-timers' game, and we posed for pictures together, and I actually visited him in the Dominican. The next year, he was in the Hall of Fame. Hey, over the years, you learn to forget things."


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tom70

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Reply with quote  #65 

Russell as most Big wigs , CEO's , Presidents and owners are wont to do , Rickey as GM got the ink and was the guy who signed Robinson. If it backfired and was a disaster as you observed and mentioned O'Malley was no where near the joint. Still as owner I have to believe he was in on the decision making process.  


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tom70

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Reply with quote  #66 
Terry I'm not on the Veterans committee and I don't get a vote. I am a stat guy. If the stats warrant induction then the next step is to determine if there are any mitigating circumstances to overlook the stats and deny membership. As the court of public opinion is the hardest to predict or regulate each individual case is judged and the player deemed worthy or not. As far as I know only Pete Rose , Shoeless Joe Jackson and the rest of his "black socks"  (i think it's 8 total of 7 others) are banned from being considered. Everyone else is up to the two voting bodies to determine their worth and merit. There was a time that Mickey Mantle and Willy Mays were banned from baseball for glad handing a few high rollers at Atlantic City ( long after they retired) What about the guys that got caught up in the autograph mess with the IRS ? Alcoholics ? Anyone with a DWI  or a domestic dispute in their past. Drug rehab ? Mental breakdowns ?  Smoking in the dugout ?  Depending on who is on the committee at the time their could be a very empty hall of fame. Babe was Drinker and a womanizer , Cobb was a bigot and a bully , I'm sure there is something in every bodies back ground that could have denied them entry. Depends who is looking and how hard they want to look.

I myself would never be elected , drinking schaeffer in the schoolyard at 15 , lusting after sophomore girls when i was a freshman , swiping a tablet from the back of the church without leaving the dime in the basket , cussing and fighting in the schoolyard , shoplifting a pack of yodels in the deli and of course the big one breaking Granny's camera and not owning up to it No hall of fame and no party nomination for elected office .

Terry I'm not poking fun at you or your opinions on the subject I am trying to ( very roundaboutly  point out that everyone will have their own opinion on who deserves in and who blew it by their actions. No one has ever come out and given a definitive description of what makes you a non candidate.
it seems for a lot of years the writers and the public were happy to use little slaps on the wrist as punishment for bad behavior. " O he won't be a elected in his first year of eligibility because he did so and so " "They will make him wait a few years to teach him a lesson " That kind of stuff has been going on for a long time. They say Rizzutto wasn't elected because the writers didn't like him as an announcer although Ted Williams and other greats lobbied for him every year.

I think Marichal was one of the best of our generation along with Koufax, Drysdale , Gibson . They were the big four for a long time.  I think he belongs in .   

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tom70

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Reply with quote  #67 

      People banned under Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis

In 1920, Kenesaw Mountain Landis was voted by the team owners to become the first Commissioner of Baseball, ostensibly to keep the players in line and out of corruption's way. Landis, a federal judge, was the owners' ideal candidate for the job, and was given unlimited power over the game. He banned quite a lot of players and various others, often for very small offenses, and at times almost indiscriminately. Compared to his eventual successors, he ruled Major League Baseball with an iron fist for 24 years, until his death at age 77 in 1944.

Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1919
Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1919
  • "Shoeless" Joe Jackson. The precise extent of Jackson's involvement is a controversial question.
  • Eddie Cicotte. The story that Cicotte (pronounced See-Cot) had been promised a $10,000 bonus if he won 30 games and then was denied two starts at the end of the season is unsubstantiated.
  • Lefty Williams
  • Chick Gandil
  • Fred McMullen
  • Swede Risberg
  • Happy Felsch
  • Buck Weaver was banned because he knew of the conspiracy, but did not report it to MLB authorities and team ownership. It should be noted that White Sox management was aware of the fix, as Joe Jackson had asked to be benched so that no one would think he was involved. Weaver successfully sued owner Charles Comiskey for his 1921 salary. [Hap Felsch won his breach-of-contract suit against Comiskey, but Buck Weaver lost a similar action.]
  • Joe Gedeon, St. Louis Browns, was banned in 1920, allegedly for conspiring with the gamblers behind the Black Sox scandal.
  • Eugene Paulette, Philadelphia Phillies, was banned in 1921 for associating with known gamblers.
  • Benny Kauff, New York Giants, was banned in 1920 for selling stolen cars. Commissioner Landis considered him "no longer a fit companion for other ball players," despite Kauff being acquitted of the charges against him in court.
  • Lee Magee, Chicago Cubs, was released just before the season began. Magee sued the Cubs for his 1920 salary and lost. Court testimony proved he had been involved in throwing games and collecting on bets.
  • Hal Chase, New York Giants, was banned in 1921 for consorting with gamblers, betting on his own teams and other corrupt practices. He had previously been accused of fixing games as early as 1910, and was reportedly passed over for managerial opportunities due to the allegations. In 1918, the scrupulously honest manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Christy Mathewson, had suspended Chase mid-season for fixing games, and John McGraw persuaded Mathewson to trade him to the Giants. However, at the end of the 1919 season, National League president John Heydler found evidence that Chase had indeed taken money from gamblers in 1918. Chase had been informally banned from the major leagues.
  • Heinie Zimmerman, New York Giants, was banned in 1921 for encouraging his teammates to fix games. He had been benched by McGraw and later sent home during the 1919 season, and had been informally banned from the majors.
  • Joe Harris, Cleveland Indians, was banned for life in 1920 after he chose to play for an independent team rather than the Indians. Harris was later allowed to play in the Major League due, in part, to his service during World War I.
  • Heinie Groh, Cincinnati Reds, was banned for two days in 1921 while he held out for a higher salary. Landis gave Groh an option: play for the Reds in 1921 or face lifetime banishment. Groh chose the former option, and played out the 1921 season.
  • Ray Fisher, Cincinnati Reds, banned in 1921 after he refused to play for the Reds (he had asked for his outright release when the Reds cut his salary by $1,000; the Reds, however, refused to release him). He was hired by the University of Michigan to coach baseball the same year. Commissioner Bowie Kuhn reinstated him in 1980.
  • Dickie Kerr, Chicago White Sox, was banned for life in 1921 under circumstances virtually identical to Fisher's banishment. Kerr had been a member of the 1919 Black Sox team, but he won both his starts in the contested 1919 World Series and was acquitted of involvement in the conspiracy. He was reinstated by Landis in 1925.
  • Phil Douglas, New York Giants, was banned in 1922 after notifying an acquaintance on the St. Louis Cardinals that he planned to jump his club, the Giants, for the pennant stretch run to spite McGraw, with whom Douglas had had a severe falling out during the regular season.
  • Jimmy O'Connell, New York Giants, was banned in 1924 for offering Philadelphia Phillies shortstop Heinie Sand $500 to throw a game between the two teams for his own and his gambler backers' financial gain.
  • William Cox, Philadelphia Phillies owner, was banned in 1943 for betting on his team's games. Oddly, Cox and one of his predecessors, Horace Fogel, were both owners of the Phillies at different times and were both banned, making them (thus far) the only owners to be banned for life permanently.

 People banned under Commissioner   Bowie Kuhn

After Landis died in 1944, there was a long lull before the next banishment. During Bowie Kuhn's tenure (1969-1984), only three players (or former players) were banned for life.

Note: Mantle and Mays were reinstated by Kuhn's successor, Peter Ueberroth, in 1985.

 People banned under Commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti

A. Bartlett Giamatti spent less than six months as Commissioner of Baseball before he died unexpectedly of a heart attack. His best-known act as Commissioner was the banishment of Pete Rose from baseball.

  • Pete Rose, Cincinnati Reds, for his alleged ties to gamblers. When new information (the Dowd Report) on Rose's gambling habits came to light, Giamatti banned Rose from baseball for life in 1989. Giamatti died of a heart attack eight days later. (Rose had originally been suspended in 1988 by Giamatti, who was then the president of the National League).

Note: Rose was granted a concession in which he could apply for reinstatement once a year for as long as he lived. As of 2006, he has applied for reinstatement twice. Commissioners Fay Vincent and Bud Selig have both refused to act on the respective reinstatement requests, and Rose remains permanently ineligible. Rose has recently admitted that "everything" the Dowd Report contained was the complete, unadulterated truth.[1] One of the big issues, on the side of Major League Baseball, was that an apology and an admission of wrongdoing would be the first step towards reinstatement.

 People banned under Commissioner Fay Vincent

Fay Vincent became commissioner upon the death of Giamatti.

  • George Steinbrenner, New York Yankees owner, banned in 1990 for paying a private investigator $40,000 to "dig up dirt" on Yankees player Dave Winfield in order to discredit him. The "dirt" most likely means anything anyone might have known about Winfield. Additionally, much of the information Steinbrenner received was from a small-time gambler and rackets-runner named Howard Spira, who had once worked for Winfield's charitable foundation. Steinbrenner's suspension was also the result of his association with a known gambler.

Note: To this day, the issue has not been resolved. In Steinbrenner's absence, his son took control of the Yankees, and then relinquished the team back to his father when Bud Selig (Vincent's successor) reinstated Steinbrenner in 1993.

  • Steve Howe, New York Yankees and Los Angeles Dodgers (among other teams), banned in 1992 after a large number of suspensions related to drug use, particularly cocaine and alcohol. Shortly after his banishment, an independent arbiter reinstated Howe, who went on to pitch three more suspension-ridden seasons before finally calling it quits in 1996.

 


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RussellDoucetteof73

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Reply with quote  #68 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom70

Russell as most Big wigs , CEO's , Presidents and owners are wont to do , Rickey as GM got the ink and was the guy who signed Robinson. If it backfired and was a disaster as you observed and mentioned O'Malley was no where near the joint. Still as owner I have to believe he was in on the decision making process.  


Was O'Malley owner of the Dodger's in 1945-46?
Maybe he quietly gave Rickey permission to scout and sign a black player. 

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RussellDoucetteof73

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Reply with quote  #69 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom70

People banned under Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis

People banned under Commissioner Bowie Kuhn

People banned under Commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti
 
People banned under Commissioner Fay Vincent

Without going into detail and naming everyone again,
That's alot of people!

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JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #70 
On August 13, 1945, Branch Rickey, John L. Smith
and Walter O'Malley formed a trio of owners for the
Brooklyn Dodgers. They owned 75% of the team; the
other 25% owned by Dearie Mulvey (daughter of a
previous team owner).  At the time of Jackie Robinson's
signing in 1946, O'Malley was part owner, general counsel, and a vice-president.
 
SAMMY67
 
PS: O'Malley talked Horace Stoneham into moving
my beloved New York Baseball Giants to San Francisco.
For that, I can never forgive him.  In actuality, I didn't
give a heck about the Dodgers.  And the shame of it
all is that the NY Giants, were by far, the New York City
National League team with the greatest tradition.  They once owned NYC, and now they are almost forgotten, while the Brooklyn Dodgers continue on, due in great part to Roger Kahn's "The Boys of Summer."

 
JimDavis

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Reply with quote  #71 
The one thing that always bothered me about Bowie
Kuhn's banning of Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays from
baseball for working as greeters in a casino is this:
 
When asked about the owners of baseball teams owning
race horses (e.g. Joan Payson of the Mets) and, therefore, being invovled in a sport that was totally based upon gambling, Kuhn said, "Some things you can
fix, and some you can't."  In other words, the owners
(the people who hired him) were untouchable.

SAMMY67

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Reply with quote  #72 
So, might as well just use the rule book as kindling. Eventually ,everyone gets in, no matter what, as long as they have the stats. An' no one is responsible for anything anymore. That's the message we're sending our kids. A sorry state of affairs.
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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #73 
Terry,

It is a sorry state of affairs that the popular culture today is so enamored with celebrity and so willing to give cultural 'heroes' a pass for their behavior. But the Hall of Fame is about baseball, and Rose could play ball. If he's kept out they should clean house and get rid of all they guys who ever tested positive for any illegal substance, ever shot their father - good by Ty, ever spiked anyone, beat their wives or kids, attacked other players with a bat,  intentionally 'drilled' a batter, threw a spitball etc., etc.

Major league baseball today, unfortunately, is no more then a business. People should stop idolizing these guys for their athletic skills. Guys like Jeter and Cal Ripken are few and far between.

Now let's get back on topic before this gets politicized!

Whose gonna get Santana and what's he worth?

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tom70

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Reply with quote  #74 

Terry and John  I agree about the "star struck" society we live in today. I also agree that there are a lot of not nice people who are in and have the stats to get in the hall of fame. Money huge money is the enabler. If weas American's want it to change then we shouldn't spend 4.2 billion ( last years Major League Baseball revenue) and keep setting attendance records.  


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tom70

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Reply with quote  #75 
  Back to Baseball !!!
I heard this morning the Detroit Tigers pulled off a multi player deal acquiring both 3b Miguel Cabrarro and P Dontrell Willis from the Marlins for 6 to 8 players. Yanks better sweeten that offer for Santana or he will be in Boston by Friday. Hey Omar !!! You out there ??? Better get in touch with Billy Beane in a hurry !! A's are looking to unload pitching (Dan Heran) and last time I looked Mets could use some !

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