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TonyCasamento69

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Reply with quote  #31 
Sexual hijinks, financial improprieties and betrayal of the public trust I can live with.  But when politicians cheat in marathons I think it's time to really get angry.

Click here.


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tom70

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Reply with quote  #32 

hey does this guy know ( or date) Rosie Ruiz ????


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BobJohnston

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Reply with quote  #33 
Tony, I concur with the political and economic view of military locations.  It looks good and brings in some revenue.  However, the bottom line is, would they go broke if we were to leave?  Our military bases in Europe provide for a large amount of the economies of the host countries, what with most of the civilian personnel being from the local communities.  Yet, given the strength of the European economy, I think it would survive a U. S. withdrawal from the continent. The one remaining fact is that there is no longer a threat to the sovreignty of the European nations from anyone.  But, the Asian theater is still under a cloud of turmoil.
As to the Philipine comparison.  Ken's right.  The Philipines were a U. S. spoil of war, gained after the Spanish American War.  Returning their independence was a form of goodwill, as was the return of Okinowa to the Japanese. Up until that return, there wouldn't really have been a thought of a Sadam type being in charge.
A small oversight on the illegal immigrant issue was made.  The Hispanics are the largest and most vocal group, yet they are not alone.  Our Northern border allows many illegal Irish to enter the country also.  They can travel legally to Canada and then simply cross the border.  This has tapered off with Ireland joining the European Union and recieving a full share of the pie.  But, prior to that they were a third world country in their own right.  They were largely unnoticed due to both speaking English and being caucasian.  I agree that those seeking to emmigrate legally should recieve a more prompt and fair treatment.  Yet, the sad facts are that the illegals are too numerous to possibly be deported.  Allowing them to apply to become legal just makes more sense, not to mention it'd be much cheaper for the legal taxpayers not to toss them, but absorb them into society.  Thus gaining more legal taxpayers!  Oh yeah, and possible registered voters as well.  Once some politician realizes this tidbit, watch what happens.  Now, if only they can produce oil.
Finally, is there a reason no one has commented on the Gay Marriage issue?  Did I just miss one, has it been passed over?  Or, has the idea of it being a right, covered by the First Amendment, actually been considered as possible?
Having missed this year's reunion and not knowing yet about next year's, and seeing a new emoticon join the selection, let me offer to say  and have us each enjoy a beverage together.  That way we can say we discussed things over a friendly drink! Yo, Bartender, beer here!


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tom70

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Reply with quote  #34 

One bourbon , one scotch and one beer !


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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Our military bases in Europe provide for a large amount of the economies of the host countries, what with most of the civilian personnel being from the local communities.


Actually the host countries pay a lot for this though not sure where the number fall. The only real usage or value to them is on being a remote operations base for the Middle East.

Quote:
Yet, the sad facts are that the illegals are too numerous to possibly be deported. Allowing them to apply to become legal just makes more sense, not to mention it'd be much cheaper for the legal taxpayers not to toss them, but absorb them into society. Thus gaining more legal taxpayers!


Bob, there is good reason to what you say here but the devil is in the details and what happens to stimulate unending illegal immigration. I think more could be done to discourage illegal immigration, fence not being one of them. Reducing the benefits and increasing the 'pain' would stem the flow a lot more than legitimizing it.
I think that as illegals come here ready to work, they could be put to work to pay back the costs of catching them before returning them home. This only makes sense if done very humanely. We need to deal with the fact that we can not survive well w/o their labors while at the same time not legitimizing excessive and/or illegal invasion/immigration.

Of course the battle rages between those who 'seem' racially insensitive and those who think that being hispanic endows them with special rights to cross borders with impunity.

Quote:
Finally, is there a reason no one has commented on the Gay Marriage issue?


Maybe people realized it only affects them if the ARE gay? (in which case they agree with you)

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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #36 

Bob and webguy OF COURSE decisions on our military stationing in Europe are made based on political considerations, and economics is one aspect of those considerations. Any action any government ever takes has a political objective. That is what political means - having to do with government.

 

While after WWII, our national defense may have dictated that we keep a significant troop presence in Europe, in the actual citing of our bases certainly more than just military factors were taken into account. And then deciding where to maintain bases in Europe, just as in the US, results in contests between localities, all eager for the tremendous economic benefits from having a base there.  With unemployment in Germany is still hovering near 7%, down from 10% a few years ago, they could better absorb the loss of jobs from any base closings, but they would still be very reticent to lose any bases.

 

Also, while the need for a ‘trip wire’ deployment of forces in Europe seems no longer needed as it still is in Korea, the Russians certainly have hopes of again extending their influence over the former Soviet Union. And European bases, most notably Ramstein Air Base has been essential for operations in the Middle East.

 

Regarding immigration, first a quick comment on Ireland. Ireland had been receiving significant aid as a member of the EU since 1973 and the emigration continued fairly unabated. (In the late 80’s a friend who is a life look Woodsider, said there were more Irish there then he had ever seen.) It was the explosion of the “Celtic Tiger” economy in the mid to late 90’s that stemmed emigration out of Ireland and it wasn’t around 2000 that Ireland had for the first time a net immigration. The “Celtic Tiger” economy was a more result of the world explosion in technology and the wise decision earlier to steer so much of the EU aid towards education then a result of the EU. In 2000 more code was written in Ireland then any other country except the US. And Ireland hosted one of only three MicroSoft distribution centers outside the US.

 

I think the illegals here should get no preferential treatment whatsoever towards being legalized; nor should they receive any benefits, other than immediate medical attention, while here. If a person shows up at a hospital it turns out the person is here illegally, that person after treatment should be deported. If a student in school is found to be here illegally that student should go too, along with the family if they can be rounded up. And anyone charged with a crime should be made to prove they are here legally. (I'd even accept national identity cards to try to remedy the current disastrous situation.) It is unquestionable that our willingness to provide illegals all the services a legal resident is entitled to draws more and more illegals. 

 

I’m not saying we start a witch-hunt, but when a person is determined to be here illegally, that situation is corrected. If a person had fled a Florida court thirty years ago and has lived an exemplary life since, but is stopped in Oregon for a traffic violation, if his history is discovered that is addressed. Likewise, when someone is found to outstanding parking tickets, that’s addressed. Why should we not enforce our laws against people who have no right to be here? 

 

Making our ‘culture’ less welcoming for illegals, deporting those who come to our attention, along with stricter enforcement on our borders (and fences have worked where they have been installed), should reduce the problem. We have effectively been doing nothing, and as Roosevelt said, “When action is called for the best thing to do is the right thing. The worst thing to do is nothing!” 

People are amazed to lean what the ‘failure rates’ of immigrants were during some periods of the mass emigration from Europe. At times, ¼ of English speakers and over ½ of non-English speakers returned to Europe because they could ‘make it’ here. There was no welfare then, thank GOD! Had there been, everyone would possibly have settled on the East coast and just collected their checks.


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TonyCasamento69

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKerins66

Bob and webguy OF COURSE decisions on our military stationing in Europe are made based on political considerations, and economics is one aspect of those considerations. Any action any government ever takes has a political objective. That is what political means - having to do with government.

And you feel the need to lecture me on the definition of 'political' because...


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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKerins66

Bob and webguy OF COURSE decisions on our military stationing in Europe are made based on political considerations, and economics is one aspect of those considerations. Any action any government ever takes has a political objective. That is what political means - having to do with government.

And you feel the need to lecture me on the definition of 'political' because...

 

 

I thought you said

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by webguy

I believe that we station troops and go to war based on political and economic reasons, not military ones.




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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #39 
You hear that families are separated by arresting illegals. There is a lot of sympathy generated for them by that. It all seems to come from an attitude that our immigration law are wrong and somehow a major inconvenience to people who purposely break them. They chose to put their children at great risk both in the process of getting here and staying here. Why are OUR legitimate laws to blame. If anything we should consider prosecution for child endangerment.

I am reasonably certain that if every illegal was required to do labor under humane conditions and without pay for 2 months and then was deported DEEP into Mexico, there would be less of a welcome mat to attract more like the "Immigration Reform" implies.

The attitude in this country seems to be that they are above the law and they respond accordingly.


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BobJohnston

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Reply with quote  #40 
Barry, There's one small problem with your thought of dropping them DEEP into Mexico.  Many of them had already travelled from deeper down, like El Salvador, Ecuador and the like.  Mexico was simply a half way point for some.
My idea is that it may be more prudent to just stop wasting the money to deport these folks.  My jail has an Immigration Court.  I can't count how many have received deportation orders, been deported and returned.  Even the judge once commented that the guy would probably be back in the country before all the deportation paperwork was filed on the case.  In some instances, they get off one plane and cross to the next one headed back!  These are the ones draining resources and money to the system.  They're not all hispanic either.  I once heard an agent remark he got back from Italy and while waiting for his luggage, the guy he just returned got off a different flight!
It seems the ones trying to attain the "American Dream", by working hard and trying to make a better life for their families, are the ones caught, deported and lost in the mix.  To many of them, it's worth the risk of getting caught to come here and try in the first place.  Remember, the folks who came over on the Mayflower weren't exactly legal immigrants themselves.   They just got here before the laws were enacted to keep others, like them, out.  If they're making an honest effort to make it, give them the chance to do so.  But, if they're just looking for a free ride, then absolutely, boot them.
I see where the thoughts about Gay marriage would probably only receive notice and/or comments from Gays themselves.  To this I say, bull shit!  I'm sure I'm not the only one on this board who knows some Gay people.  Are they different in appearances?  Most are not obvious about their preferences, but discreet.  They're no different than being from a different neighborhood, country, religion, race or ethnicity.  They're accepted at face value, for the person they are personally.  It's not what they are, but rather who they are, that should be all that matters.  Terry, never mind the mail, or old threads.  Remember an old saying that claims we're "All God's children"?  Or the opening of one of this country's most sacred documents proclaiming, "All men are created equal"?  Remember the civil rights movement of the sixties?  Desegregation?  Women's sufferage?  The issues of Gay rights are today's issues and will likely end up gaining the same recognition and acceptance in the end.  Not much more to it than that!  It's called realism and it's going to happen sooner or later, whether anyone likes it or not.  With all the educated folks on the board here, why is this so hard to see?
WAIT, I"VE GOT IT!!!!  Take the illegals, make them marry gays, draft them and ship them all to military bases in Europe.  That'll solve both political and military issues in areas where they don't really mean a damn thing anyway!


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Bob Johnston
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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #41 
Bob,

Your points are very valid about illegals. This is not an issue easily solved even if you decide to let them stay (since there is no limit to those who then follow) or deport and fence (no fence will work that we can afford and deportation seems not to be a reasonable option en masse).

It has been stated before that making the experience less pleasant and predictable punishment might be a deterrent. While at the same time establishing a real guest worker visa program stripped of anchor baby rights and with a reasonable guarantee of return to Mexico or where ever.
This is the carrot and stick approach together.
America...hell the planet...can not afford millions of more wasteful over-consumers that population growth brings.
I agree most of these people are producers and ambitious.....and there are plenty of legal immigrants who share those virtues.
I think politicians make simplistic proposals that are doomed to failure....either on the right or the left....always playing to their crowd....

Quote:
I see where the thoughts about Gay marriage would probably only receive notice and/or comments from Gays themselves.  To this I say, bull shit!


This comes from the school of thought that says that when one persons rights are endangered, we all are endangered. We stand together to defend everyones rights or we get picked off one group at a time.

If we single out Moslems (aside from it being really stupid strategy) for special scrutiny, when we treat any sub group with less than equality, we set ourselves up as the next victim.

I am a white upper middle class male. Most police officers would not stop me for no reason. They would not use excess force usually. If I let them do it to a black man, then what is to stop them from doing it to me...the precedent is set.

If we celebrate everyones rights, almost to excess, we err on the better side.

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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #42 
Sexual hypocrisy is nothing new. But I always enjoy the stingers getting stung. For example, Sen Craig from Idaho is as homophobic as they come in his record in the Senate. But he gets stung by the very homophobia that he promotes. As far as I have read of his "affair" in the Minneapolis restroom, he never did anything that reasonably went to the criminal test of "beyond reasonable doubt". None of us were there to really know but unless you outright proposition someone in an offensive way or violate their privacy, where is the crime. But it was his "type" that set up the system of stings! I think the irony is delicious
I strongly suspect he is bi or gay since he has such a strong sense of the whole thing.

Then the good old Catholic Church....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/20071015/co_po/bustedmonsignorimnotreallygay;_ylt=AnSWiG2BnA6y9mCdpjQqXn8E1vAI
You sure can count on sex starved horney prelates to provide the best stories.

Some day maybe humanity will culturally evolve beyond all this...we got past the Inquisition and bloody conversions.....we move forward so slowly it seems...


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Ken

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Reply with quote  #43 
On 5 October, I wrote the following on this forum:

When my wife obtained her citizenship over ten years ago, the first thing she did was petition her younger brother to come to the U.S. He was the only one in her large family who wanted to come here. He still has an 18 year wait for a visa. What do I (or should I say the people who cry for amesty for illegals) tell him? He (& we) follow the rules while others who break them get priority.

Nobody has bothered to answer me. This is a problem which is never discussed by the politicians, those crying for amnesty, the media, or the posters on this forum. Any thoughts? Anybody?

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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #44 
Ken,

I think a few of us have addressed this issue. Putting illegal behavior AHEAD of legal behavior is not a good thing.

Barry


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Ken

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Reply with quote  #45 

Very true Barry but it still isn't a good answer for my brother-in-law since the gov't quite often does the opposite.


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