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TheColoradoKid

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Reply with quote  #76 

Old? Dude, one of the younger Gators lamented the fact that he lost his yearbook in a basement flood. Mine was lost in a similar fashion; Noah wouldn't let me take it on the ark.


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FXOC66

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Reply with quote  #77 
So Thomas More was beheaded....is that why they have a picture of his head, with a can on top, outside of the paint store? 
JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #78 
Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b

I seem to recall that Al Gore got over 500,000 more votes than did Bush. Had all voters in Florida been treated equally in casting votes and being counted, the tragedies of the last 6 years would have been averted. We all know how black voters waited in Ohio for HOURS and Diebold voters kept voting for Bush even as they pushed the Kerry screen buttons.[\QUOTE]

Quote:
Again ad hominem, the mark of a true liberal.
Does the irony of this comment escape you? Or may I hope that you intended the irony?

I have two questions for you....are you glad to have Bush as your president for the last 6 years? And if so WHY????

 

Barry, you’re correct that Gore got the plurality of the vote in 2000, but not the majority of the vote, not 50%. Referendums generally require at least a majority of the vote to be passed. If we look at the presidential votes as national referendums, we’ll see that since FDR only on two occasions have Democrats passed muster and neither of those in the last 30 years (LBJ and Carter’s 50.1%.) Republicans have gotten in excess of 50% in seven elections, four of those in the last 26 years, including the most recent one. (Eisenhower- twice, Nixon once, Reagan twice, GWHB once and GWB once.) So a national “referendum” would seem to favor the Republicans.  But be that as it may, it’s the Electoral College that counts. So the whole nonsensical discussion of the 2000 popular vote was just that, nonsense. 

 

You’re making some oft repeated but never substantiated allegations about 2000 election. What is clear is that in Florida the precincts with the most voting problems were mainly controlled buy Democrat election committees. I believe the twenty most problematic districts were, and four of the next five also. Out of the twenty-five most troubled voting places, twenty-four were run by Democrats and one by an Independent. (If my recollection isn’t exact I’m sure it’s not far off.)

 

I’d be interested to see some support of the two specific claims you make. My sense of it would be that, at least in Ohio those would again be Democratic controlled polling places.

 

Had the third recount continued in Florida, Bush would have picked up more votes. At least according to several newspapers that had investigation done and recounts performed.

How all this is Bush’s fault somehow escapes me.

 

There is no irony in my comment. I find that liberals constantly attack individuals rather then try to make a point. You gratuitous comment is demeaning to the majority of the American people who did vote for GWB, especially in the states he carried.

 

Am I glad Bush is the president? Given the alternatives, Gore or the traitor Kerry, ABSOLUTELY! Gore would still be awaiting the results of an environmental impact study on the WTC collapse before talking any action. And Kerry would have surrender to the Islamofascists by now, had he ever done anything to oppose them.

 

There are some things I disagree with Bush about, the growth of government for one. But at least he sees the world for the dangerous place it is.  It seems only Lieberman, out of all the nationally prominent dems has even a remedial understanding of the world we live in.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #79 
John,
Quote:
There are some things I disagree with Bush about, the growth of government for one. But at least he sees the world for the dangerous place it is.  It seems only Lieberman, out of all the nationally prominent dems has even a remedial understanding of the world we live in.

It is this very view of the world that makes the USA such a dangerous nation to occupy this planet. I travel a lot of this planet and find almost any of it safer than the good old USA. People are wonderful and they have real culture otehr than what is manufactured by corporations.
I am sorry but I made a major error in judgement about your intellectual ability that you managed to correct with your diatribe. You seem to talk very intelligently but when properly stimulated go off onto meaningless pap. Let me suggest that you explain your support:
1) Why we invaded Iraq driven by lies about WMDs? (I would happily list a few)
2) Why we gave HUGE tax cuts to the very rich while running a war and deficits?
3) How we could go from Surplus (first time since Eisenhower) to HUGE deficits that include HUGE no bid contracts to Cheneys Halliburton?
4) How after spending billions on FEMA and HOMELAND security our efforts to help Americans cost billions and did little?
5) How when we MOST need the cooperation of the world we have pissed away ALL of our good will and created enemies where we once had freinds due to arrogance and stupidity.
6) How you could call Kerry (VN medal decorated veteran) a traitor and be proud of a cocaine and alcahol addicted AWOL idiot like Bush????
7) How after 6 years in office this chimp has been ocmpletely IMPOTENT about North Korea.
8) So WHAT has the CHIMP done for us???? Try leaving the USA (not that you have to) The world sees us rightly as a self-deluded joke....and a dangerous one at that.


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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #80 

Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna_b

It is this very view of the world that makes the USA such a dangerous nation to occupy this planet. I travel a lot of this planet and find almost any of it safer than the good old USA. People are wonderful and they have real culture otehr than what is manufactured by corporations.
I am sorry but I made a major error in judgement about your intellectual ability that you managed to correct with your diatribe. You seem to talk very intelligently but when properly stimulated go off onto meaningless pap. Let me suggest that you explain your support:
1) Why we invaded Iraq driven by lies about WMDs? (I would happily list a few)

For three years I've been waiting for someone to state the LIE. The one that no one else advanced prior to Bush. Not Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy, Albright, the UN, the governments of Germany or Russia. PLEASE enlighten me.

2) Why we gave HUGE tax cuts to the very rich while running a war and deficits?

The 'rich' pay a higher percent of the total tax now then before the tax cuts. Millions of the lowest wage earners were remove all together fro paying income taxes that 100% cut for them. Unfortunately whenever there is any tax cuts, those who pay the vast bulk of taxes have to get some relief. The top 5% of wage earners pay over 50% of the total income tax. The Bottom 50% pay less them 5%.

 

The cuts have unquestionably spurred the economy that was recovering from an inherited recession, followed by a devastating terrorist attack.

 

As President Reagan pointed out, this country has never run a deficit as the result of taxing too little, but spending too much.

3) How we could go from Surplus (first time since Eisenhower) to HUGE deficits that include HUGE no bid contracts to Cheneys Halliburton?

Simple,too much spending. Are you referring to the no-bid contracts awarded Halliburton by the Clinton administration? Or maybe the Iraq contacts awarded to the only company in the world capable of performing the required tasks. (Or shouldn't our soldiers be fed and oil fires put out?) 
4) How after spending billions on FEMA and HOMELAND security our efforts to help Americans cost billions and did little?

I think Nagin's evacuation plan, and Blanco's delay in requesting help and both their general incompetence contributed as much as anything else

5) How when we MOST need the cooperation of the world we have pissed away ALL of our good will and created enemies where we once had freinds due to arrogance and stupidity.

That's your opion.
6) How you could call Kerry (VN medal decorated veteran) a traitor and be proud of a cocaine and alcahol addicted AWOL idiot like Bush????

Kerry met with the enemy while a serving US Naval officer.  Kerry advocated the enemy position while a serving US Naval Officer. Both chargeable offenses. He and his group rendered aid and comfort to our enemies and his rhetoric was used in attempt to break the US POWs.  

 

As for his decorations, I'd love for him to release his military records as he has repeatedly said he has done, would do, might do, but hasn't done.

 

Why was Kerry honored in the Vietnamese Hall of Heroes? His service to the Communist after his time in Vietnam certainly far outweighed his service to the US while in Vietnam.

 

Any support for you claims that Bush was addicted to or even used cocaine? And I suppose Dan Rather is your source for the AWOL charge?


7) How after 6 years in office this chimp has been ocmpletely IMPOTENT about North Korea.

 

Bush is responsible for the agreement Carter brokered on behalf of the Clinton administration? Yeah, right!


8) So WHAT has the CHIMP done for us???? Try leaving the USA (not that you have to) The world sees us rightly as a self-deluded joke....and a dangerous one at that.

 

Aside from prevented another terrorist attack here and keep the economy going I don't really care.

 

 

Bush is a Chimp, a cocaine addict, the world hates us all, but I'm the one on a  diatribe. Good one!

 

 

 


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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #81 

Quote:

It is this very view of the world that makes the USA such a dangerous nation to occupy this planet. I travel a lot of this planet and find almost any of it safer than the good old USA. People are wonderful and they have real culture otehr than what is manufactured by corporations.
I am sorry but I made a major error in judgement about your intellectual ability that you managed to correct with your diatribe. You seem to talk very intelligently but when properly stimulated go off onto meaningless pap. Let me suggest that you explain your support:
1) Why we invaded Iraq driven by lies about WMDs? (I would happily list a few)

For three years I've been waiting for someone to state the LIE. The one that no one else advanced prior to Bush. Not Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy, Albright, the UN, the governments of Germany or Russia. PLEASE enlighten me.
Well there was the State of the Union Speech where he quoted intelligence long discounted that Nigeria was contacted for uranium. Then there were the numerous appearances, recorded and now denied (imagine denying speaches that one can play back???) but Rummie that I remember seeing telling us that WE KNOW WHERE THESE WEAPONS ARE. Then Cheney claimed , long after it was proven otherwise, that trailers discovered in Iraq were chemical/biological weapons trailers. This after even teh White House admitted they were not. I am beginning to doubt your intellectual honesty even with yourself. Are you THAT brainwashed to not SEE what is going on before your very eyes???? I am sure I could go on but you clearly are no longer influenced by reality.

2) Why we gave HUGE tax cuts to the very rich while running a war and deficits?

The 'rich' pay a higher percent of the total tax now then before the tax cuts. Millions of the lowest wage earners were remove all together fro paying income taxes that 100% cut for them. Unfortunately whenever there is any tax cuts, those who pay the vast bulk of taxes have to get some relief. The top 5% of wage earners pay over 50% of the total income tax. The Bottom 50% pay less them 5%.
Well to begin with the rich can clearly afford taxes better than the middle classes and the poor. No objective assessment by the GAO has ever shown that there there was significant relief for the poor or middle classes it all went to the TOP. Go look it up. You say "why soak the rich?" well the rich BENEFIT the MOST from government largesse. It is the US Military that they use as thier private army to guarantee thier enterprises even as the local countries and local people may suffer as a result. The infrastructure of the nation disproportionately benefits the very rich, etc etc.
Pease don't give me the crap about trickle down economics since low interest rates have a far more positive effect on economic growth than tax rates. If you can not beat the cost of money for your new veture then why invest????
Deficits drive up interest rates. The secret to the Clinto economic miracle was the continuous drop in interest rates as a benefit of reduced deficits. The legacy of Bush will be higher taxes (you have to pay bills sometime) and higher interest rates ( ya have to pay the Chinese for loaning us all that money)

The cuts have unquestionably spurred the economy that was recovering from an inherited recession, followed by a devastating terrorist attack.


Oh, yeah 9/11 was the rason for the Bush recession.....well it was on Bush's watch...but we would never want to blame anyone so incompetent as BUSH for ANYTHING would we????

As President Reagan pointed out, this country has never run a deficit as the result of taxing too little, but spending too much.


Wasn't he the PREVIOUS DEFICIT record holder before Bush????

3) How we could go from Surplus (first time since Eisenhower) to HUGE deficits that include HUGE no bid contracts to Cheneys Halliburton?

Simple,too much spending. Are you referring to the no-bid contracts awarded Halliburton by the Clinton administration? Or maybe the Iraq contacts awarded to the only company in the world capable of performing the required tasks. (Or shouldn't our soldiers be fed and oil fires put out?)

You really swallow the propaganda without question don't you? Do you have any source of info other than Rush?
4) How after spending billions on FEMA and HOMELAND security our efforts to help Americans cost billions and did little?

I think Nagin's evacuation plan, and Blanco's delay in requesting help and both their general incompetence contributed as much as anything else
Always blame someone else....the fact is that neither Nagen or Blanco made th feds buy billions of dollars worth of trailers that were not fit for service. FEMA is suppossed to be prepared with contracts in place for serices and supplies. If the local government fails then shame on them but that is no excuse for incompetence and fraud that followed due to FEMA. You truley are a close minded ditto head to never consider any other more complex explaination...why let the facts spoil you perfect explaination. "Brownie you are doing a hell of a job" Yeah, that is real leader...

5) How when we MOST need the cooperation of the world we have pissed away ALL of our good will and created enemies where we once had freinds due to arrogance and stupidity.

That's your opion.
Get outta your hole and look around. You think I am making this up????...again...you fail to accept the reality that is around you...deny, deny, deny

6) How you could call Kerry (VN medal decorated veteran) a traitor and be proud of a cocaine and alcahol addicted AWOL idiot like Bush????

Kerry met with the enemy while a serving US Naval officer. Kerry advocated the enemy position while a serving US Naval Officer. Both chargeable offenses. He and his group rendered aid and comfort to our enemies and his rhetoric was used i attempt to break the US POWs.


Kerry said that VN was a total failure and we were wasting American lives. This was the same opinion expressed by every official at the time albeit not public until much later. You were willing to sacrifice American lives and VN lives for NOTHING. He went and served.
Or did you sit out the war on deferments like Cheney and Rumsfeld?

As for his decorations, I love for him to release hie military records as he has repeated said he has done, would do, might do.

Why was Kerry honored in the Vietnamese Hall of Heroes? His service to the Communist after his time in Vietnam certainly far outweighed his service to the US while in Vietnam.

Any support for you claims that Bush was addicted to or even used cocaine? And I suppose Dan Rather is your source for the AWOL charge?


Candidate Bush stated he had not used cocaine since 1971....seems like he was admitting to me....maybe not to the true beliver.


7) How after 6 years in office this chimp has been ocmpletely IMPOTENT about North Korea.

Bush is responsible for the agreement Carter brokered on behalf of the Clinton administration? Yeah, right!


Do you know what you are talking about?


8) So WHAT has the CHIMP done for us???? Try leaving the USA (not that you have to) The world sees us rightly as a self-deluded joke....and a dangerous one at that.

Aside from prevented another terrorist attack here and keep the economy going I don't really care.


Clinton prevented the LAX attack. I know of no attack Bush has prevented...certainly not 9/11. He spend a month just before it in Texas on vacation.



Sorry, but I see you as a person with a closed mind ignoring realities around you like so many of the 29%ers. I find it astounding that people like you exist but then look at those in Russia who still yearn for Stalin or the neo-Nazis in Germany. No level of reality affects thier thinking, they just belive and you show no sense of hesitation like they don't. That is what is scarey. You remind me of the people in the movie Independance Day who after the whole planet is destroyed stand around cheering that they won. The smoking ruins are ignored.
I don't want to see my country or the world in smoking ruins, you only see military solutions to everything. Europe has learned to live together maybe you should consider learning from thier mistakes.


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JohnKerins66

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Reply with quote  #82 

Point 1 The BIG LIE

Well still no good on anyone providing me the big LIE from Bush. You say,

 

“Well there was the State of the Union Speech where he quoted intelligence long discounted that Nigeria was contacted for uranium.”

 

As far as I know, no one had ever claimed Nigeria was contacted. But Joe Wilson reported that NIGER was.

 

The Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA of July 2004 found Joe Wilson lied repeatedly to in NY Times and in his book. And that in 2002, he had in fact reported to the CIA that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger in 1999. After debriefing Wilson the CIA report stated, “Mayaki (prime minister of Niger) let the matter drop due to UN sanction son Iraq.

 

British intelligence, after a review, in July 2004 said they stand by their report that Iraq sought to by uranium in Africa.

 

So a year and a half after Bush’s speech, both the US and the UK found his remarks creditable. Both the Senate Intel Com report and the British statements are available on line.

 

As far as the rest of your first point, I’ll just say the absence of proof is not a proof of  absence. Of course, a well-informed man like you is aware that to date about 500 chemical bearing artillery shells have been uncovered in Iraq. Do they count as WMDs?

 

Points 2 & 3 Tax Cuts, recession and deficits

Really too complicated to cover here especially as you just state various opinion with out any support…tax the rich because they can afford it…..they get the most benefit from the most government agencies…..they use the military as their private army… the legacy of Bush will be…..

 

This is all classic demagoguery without any factual support offered.

 

There is one claim you make that is easily refuted and that is supply side economics is ‘crap’ and ‘deficits cause higher interest rates.’ Interest rates peeked in mid 1982, just as Reagan stated to run his ‘huge’ deficits. As the deficits increased interest rates fell. The economic growth from the structural changes Reagan enacted and supply side economics kept interest rates falling for the next quarter century.

 

By the way it was Reagan’s policies that allow us to grow ourselves out of debt.

 

Bush inherited an economy wherein; unemployment had bottomed nine months before his taking office; a cut in the fed funds rate was needed on January 3rd ‘in light of further weakening of sales and production’; over three quarters GDP dropped from almost 5% growth in early 2000 to negative by the end of the year.  Decline in GDP lasted until the 3rd qtr of 01 and has increased ever since. When was the Bush recession?

 

Again, I maintain that only two presidents in the last 100 years have had any real impact on our economy, FDR and Reagan. Beyond those two, the economic impact of presidents has been minimal. But if you’re going to blame President Bush for a recession the least you could do is find one that started on his watch.  

But I do agree with you the deficit has grown too much. We really should rethink the ridiculous increases in social services and money wasted trying to make everything all right for everybody, immediately, with no one ever feeling any discomfort.

 

What other company can provide the services Halliburton does on the scale needed? If KBR (the subsidiary receiving the bulk of contracts in Iraq) is so profitable, why is Halliburton trying to divest itself of it? You are aware the Clinton administration also awarded no bid contracts to Halliburton, aren’t you?

 

Point 4 FEMA and Homeland Security.

You say we’ve spent billions and have done little. Well we haven’t been attacked despite numerous plots, one uncovered today and at least there foiled in NYC over the years. To my thinking, FEMA is an overreaching joke that should have never taken on a lot of the things they did. But if there is anywhere in the country millions can be easily waste or ‘lost,’ it’s in the political environs of Louisiana.

 

Point 5 We have pissed away all our good friend….

Who the France? They’ve accommodated Arab terrorist for decades. And they were in bed with Saddam and his oil industry.

 

Point 6 Traitor Kerry and cocaine Bush.

Whether or not I served is really irrelevant isn’t it. It was with Clinton. I gave my reasons why I think Kerry committed treason. Correct me if he didn’t do what I claim or if his actions weren’t used to break our POWs, rendering aid and comfort. I understand that in 05 a petition with about 1,000,000 signatures on it was sent to the Justice Dep’t demanding he be investigated for his actions in the 70’s. So I’m not alone.

 

Please provide the quote where Bush has ever said he has or hasn’t use cocaine at any time or since any date. It just doesn’t exist. He’s never said anything like that. You’re probably just selectively MISINTEERPERTING a statement. Provide the quote if you can.

 

 

Point 7 North Korea

Regarding North Korea all I know is what is historical fact and easily verifiable.

 

In 1994 Carter brokered a deal wherein the Clinton administration provided hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, including believe it or not a nuclear reactor, in exchange for an unverifiable PROMISE from North Korea to stop development of nuclear weapons. Carter and Clinton committed the US to the appeasement of North Korea. Neville Chamberlain had nothing on these guys.

 

It was only in late 2002, after North Korea had announced they were pursuing a nuclear arms program that this administration felt free to nullify the agreement. So, for eight years under Carter’s agreement North Korea was left unmonitored while they merrily developed their nuclear program.

 

Point 8 The World sees us as a “rightly as a self-deluded joke.” Clinton prevented the LAX attack.

 

Again that’s your opinion. But, with people like you acting as our ambassadors…..

 

Unless Clinton was the female guard on the Canadian border who LUCKILY stopped a nervous Arab entering the country, he had nothing to do with stopping the attack. Seemingly neither did anyone else and I don’t think any claims other then dumb luck have been made. Now, could Clinton have prevented 911? Seizing Bin Laden on any one of the several opportunities he had may have. Had Clinton not snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Somalia and ran may have prevented 911? Bin Laden was certainly emboldened by that.

 

You accuse me of having a small mine. I don’t. I am opened to the facts. I’ve tried to list some above. You seem to rely on emotional generalities, misconceptions, or possibly made up quotes – Bush’s cocaine use. If you answer let’s try to limit it to factually based argument – the Niger uranium, Carter’s involvement with Korea, factual things.

 

I have to apologize for my diatribe calling closed minded, comparing you to Nazis, saying you hoping for Armageddon, implying you’re a draft dodger, etc.  Oh! Wasn’t it you said all that about me? Maybe it’s your diatribe? But it certainly doen't hold a candle to the one you posted earlier and has been taken down - a real class (or is it ass) act.

 

Apologies to Webguy, but again we have an affirmation of Reagan’s observation,

“…the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so!”  (like the existence of certain cocaine related statements by GWB)


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Reply with quote  #83 

Ok, my fault. Blame me.

 

FXOC66 Century Club Online! Registered: 2/20/05 Posts: 305 Edit | Delete 6/21/06 at 06:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Folks, We all find some posts annoying. (Kerins drives me nuts. Donna drives some guys nuts, ditto Russell, Granny, Shannon etc.) So skim or skip what you don't like. Or read it anyway, what's wrong with another point of view. But in the end, diversity of opinion is what makes this work for the greatest number of folks. Otherwise, we'd soon run out of recollections about nuns, proms and counting railroad cars. Looking forward to Kerins next nutty diatribe, I remain, FXOC '66

laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #84 

Quote:

Point 1 The BIG LIE

Well still no good on anyone providing me the big LIE from Bush. You say,

 

“Well there was the State of the Union Speech where he quoted intelligence long discounted that Nigeria was contacted for uranium.”

 

As far as I know, no one had ever claimed Nigeria was contacted. But Joe Wilson reported that NIGER was.

FALSE Joe Wilson reported that the Uranium story was a fraud and that is why Valerie Plame was outed by Cheneys henchemen in political revenge. The CIA had concluded that the letter was a fraud concocted in Italy. But it FIT. Remeber Richard Clarke, the TOP SECURITY advisor for 5 Presidents reported Bush was FIXATED on Iraq and invading Iraq since day ONE and tried to get him to change his evaluation to fit BUSHs desire to invade.

 

The Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA of July 2004 found Joe Wilson lied repeatedly to in NY Times and in his book. And that in 2002, he had in fact reported to the CIA that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger in 1999. After debriefing Wilson the CIA report stated, “Mayaki (prime minister of Niger) let the matter drop due to UN sanction son Iraq.

I would like a cite on this one.....

 

British intelligence, after a review, in July 2004 said they stand by their report that Iraq sought to by uranium in Africa.


So where is the beef...er WMDs? 1992 vintage sarin is like 1992 icecream left in the dessert....useless .....like NEOCONS grasping at reasons for fucking up and endangering the USA. Why didn't he use it if it was nasty? You think he had scrupples?

 

So a year and a half after Bush’s speech, both the US and the UK found his remarks creditable. Both the Senate Intel Com report and the British statements are available on line.

 

As far as the rest of your first point, I’ll just say the absence of proof is not a proof of  absence. Of course, a well-informed man like you is aware that to date about 500 chemical bearing artillery shells have been uncovered in Iraq. Do they count as WMDs? See above...and don't make me laugh....

 

Points 2 & 3 Tax Cuts, recession and deficits

Really too complicated to cover here especially as you just state various opinion with out any support…tax the rich because they can afford it…..they get the most benefit from the most government agencies…..they use the military as their private army… the legacy of Bush will be…..

 

This is all classic demagoguery without any factual support offered.


 

There is one claim you make that is easily refuted and that is supply side economics is ‘crap’ and ‘deficits cause higher interest rates.’ Interest rates peeked in mid 1982, just as Reagan stated to run his ‘huge’ deficits. As the deficits increased interest rates fell. The economic growth from the structural changes Reagan enacted and supply side economics kept interest rates falling for the next quarter century.

 

By the way it was Reagan’s policies that allow us to grow ourselves out of debt.

 

Bush inherited an economy wherein; unemployment had bottomed nine months before his taking office; a cut in the fed funds rate was needed on January 3rd ‘in light of further weakening of sales and production’; over three quarters GDP dropped from almost 5% growth in early 2000 to negative by the end of the year.  Decline in GDP lasted until the 3rd qtr of 01 and has increased ever since. When was the Bush recession?
Was I the only one who noticed the change from rapid private funded growth under Clinton to bloated feder deficit funded pork barrel under bush?

 

Again, I maintain that only two presidents in the last 100 years have had any real impact on our economy, FDR and Reagan.

Ok, a little economics lesson for you. Capital is a market like everything else is. You need to borrow you pay the market rate as determined by supply and demand. When the US Goverment swamps the capital market with needs (deficits) the rates go up for everyone. It doesn't matter who is president. Under Clinton and lower defense budgets and deficits, rates went down. As they went down so went the deficit since about 15% (approx) of the annual budget is interest. As that drops it is a forward feedback loop dropping even faster. It works in reverse just as fast but not in a good way. To start an enterprise you have to believe you can make a profit greater than your yield in the bank. Thus we had stagfalation when Carter was in and it wasn't until Volker was able to reign in inflation, inspite of REAGAN that we were headed to the Clinton era.
Beyond those two, the economic impact of presidents has been minimal.
Spending on useless wars, SDI which will never work, and cutting taxes to the rich, all contributed to the spiral of disaster we are in. When the world decides the USD is not the currency it wants and goes EURO, we will see a depression in the USA.
But if you’re going to blame President Bush for a recession the least you could do is find one that started on his watch. 
 

But I do agree with you the deficit has grown too much. We really should rethink the ridiculous increases in social services

Yeah, lets cut social security so the rich don't have to pay taxes. Lets let your savings be devastated by illness when you are 70 (no more Medicare) and then the new republican bankruptcy laws take your savings and home......you are either completely unaware of what is going on or a shithead. I assume it is the former.
 and money wasted trying to make everything all right for everybody, immediately, with no one ever feeling any discomfort. Certainly don't want to rock the yacht of the rich.

 

What other company can provide the services Halliburton does on the scale needed?

So much for free enterprise...then if they are the only ones let the US Governement provide it. BTW wthe contracts were let well before there was any official talk of invasion. So much for the "last possible option".
 If KBR (the subsidiary receiving the bulk of contracts in Iraq) is so profitable, why is Halliburton trying to divest itself of it? You are aware the Clinton administration also awarded no bid contracts to Halliburton, aren’t you?

 

Point 4 FEMA and Homeland Security.

You say we’ve spent billions and have done little. Well we haven’t been attacked despite numerous plots, one uncovered today and at least there foiled in NYC over the years. To my thinking, FEMA is an overreaching joke that should have never taken on a lot of the things they did. But if there is anywhere in the country millions can be easily waste or ‘lost,’ it’s in the political environs of Louisiana.

 

Point 5 We have pissed away all our good friend….

Who the France?

 They’ve accommodated Arab terrorist for decades. And they were in bed with Saddam and his oil industry.
And we have not???? Who gave him his weaponry? RUMSFUCK: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg

 

Point 6 Traitor Kerry and cocaine Bush.

Whether or not I served is really irrelevant isn’t it. It was with Clinton. I gave my reasons why I think Kerry committed treason. Correct me if he didn’t do what I claim or if his actions weren’t used to break our POWs, rendering aid and comfort.

For you, criticizing a war that has been proven to be a huge mistake even as it was being prosecuted, and Americans dying and VietNamese dying...this is treason. YOu are first class fascist to believe this and not deserving of the Constitution you claim to support. Unlike you he was supporting the troops in a real sense. He was trying to save thier lives!

I understand that in 05 a petition with about 1,000,000 signatures on it was sent to the Justice Dep’t demanding he be investigated for his actions in the 70’s. So I’m not alone.
Again, protest is not trason, especially when he put HIS ass on the line before doing so. He showed that war as a lie that people were dying for...he is a hero for that....the trueth will only set you free if you listen to it.

 

Please provide the quote where Bush has ever said he has or hasn’t use cocaine at any time or since any date. It just doesn’t exist. He’s never said anything like that. You’re probably just selectively MISINTEERPERTING a statement. Provide the quote if you can.
Bush has stated that he has not used any illegal drugs since 1974. [13] In 1998, while being unwittingly tape recorded by a now former friend, Bush explained his refusal to answer questions about whether he had used marijuana at some time in his past. “I wouldn’t answer the marijuana questions,” Bush said. “You know why? Because I don’t want some little kid doing what I tried.” When reminded that he had publicly denied using cocaine, Bush replied, “I haven’t denied anything.” [14]

13: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/08/20/president.2000/bush.drug/
14: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4282799.stm

 

 

Point 7 North Korea

Regarding North Korea all I know is what is historical fact and easily verifiable.

 

In 1994 Carter brokered a deal wherein the Clinton administration provided hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, including believe it or not a nuclear reactor, in exchange for an unverifiable PROMISE from North Korea to stop development of nuclear weapons. Carter and Clinton committed the US to the appeasement of North Korea. Neville Chamberlain had nothing on these guys.
I ask you again......WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT HAS BUSH DONE ...NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Clinton brokered what could have been a lasting solution without war. In any case even Colin Powell said it was successful for a while and delayed and reduced NKs potential. So smart ass what would you have done? Gone to war? Taken on the 15 million NK troops? At least wehn the chimp came into office they had no nukes now we are really fucked if we take them on cuz our trooops are WHERE???? IRAQ!!!!!

 

It was only in late 2002, after North Korea had announced they were pursuing a nuclear arms program that this administration felt free to nullify the agreement. So, for eight years under Carter’s agreement North Korea was left unmonitored while they merrily developed their nuclear program.

 

Point 8 The World sees us as a “rightly as a self-deluded joke.” Clinton prevented the LAX attack.

 

Again that’s your opinion. But, with people like you acting as our ambassadors…..
Poeple around the world that I know see me as hope that Americans are not all like you ...self deluded, nontraveled and insulated....

 

Unless Clinton was the female guard on the Canadian border who LUCKILY stopped a nervous Arab entering the country, he had nothing to do with stopping the attack. Seemingly neither did anyone else and I don’t think any claims other then dumb luck have been made. Now, could Clinton have prevented 911? Seizing Bin Laden on any one of the several opportunities he had may have. Had Clinton not snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Somalia and ran may have prevented 911? Bin Laden was certainly emboldened by that.
This whole Somalia thing was long ago dismissed as a NEOCON fabrication.....get over it.

I don't know if Clinton could have prevented 9/11 but BUSH was on VACATION in Texas for a month when Richard Clark said there were serious indications that things were happenning....

 

<>You accuse me of having a small mine. I don’t. I am opened to the facts. I’ve tried to list some above.
You seem to rely on emotional generalities, misconceptions, or possibly made up quotes – Bush’s cocaine use. If you answer let’s try to limit it to factually based argument – the Niger uranium, Carter’s involvement with Korea, factual things.

 

I have to apologize for my diatribe calling closed minded, comparing you to Nazis, saying you hoping for Armageddon, implying you’re a draft dodger, etc.  Oh! Wasn’t it you said all that about me? Maybe it’s your diatribe? But it certainly doen't hold a candle to the one you posted earlier and has been taken down - a real class (or is it ass) act.

I took it done...I was wrong , it was unfair, you may not be a draft dodger, I never said you were, I asked where you were...when I found out I retracted. Unlike closed minded dogmatics like you, I let the facts influence what I say and believe.

 

Apologies to Webguy, but again we have an affirmation of Reagan’s observation,



“…the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so!”  (like the existence of certain cocaine related statements by GWB)

No one had less idea of what is or isn't so than RR. He frequently made statements about things that he thought were reality but actually movies....loved the ones about SDI...taken right from one of his movies!


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Reply with quote  #85 
The real problem I have with people like Kerins is that they only care about what they want to believe and try to fit "fact" to thier belief instead of the other way around. This is ok when you are a young HS student not yet aware of critical thinking, or if you are Mississippi trailer trash with no education. But if you are able to put words and thoughts together in a half intelligible way, you wuld think you could do the same thing with critical thinking. I wish I could say that i was half perfect in this but my history of evolution in thinking shows that I have evolved as reality clashed with opinion. I have challenged everthing I believed in and what failed or fails muster I change. It astonished me that there are still 29% of the poulace that thinks W is a good president. Most of all it include some of my freinds who I know are otherwise intelligent. I was very much of a conservative when I was younger. No conservative I knew would tolerate the government spying and Patriot Act of today, nor would they tolerate the tax (deficit means you tax later) and spend insanity. Libertarians  abhore government interference in of all things, ones sex and medical lives. We are living in a society that no longer thinks as democrats (small d). Sad, Amerca has lost it's revolution.

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Reply with quote  #86 

You are quite a disappointment. I had hoped you would try to raise your game a little by citing a fact or two, not just rehashing you opinions or misinterpretation of facts. However, the problems you have with Nigeria or Niger and 1971 or 1974 etc explain your adversity to facts. You’re just not good with them.

 

The two links you cite to support you claim that, “Candidate Bush stated he had not used cocaine since 1971”, which you’ve now changed to “since 1974’ never mention President Bush saying anything about cocaine.  When asked about illegal drug use, he said he could have passed the federal employee background check even back when his father first was came to office.  From that you assume he is referring to cocaine? And you make that assumption despite the BBC article you provide clearly saying Bush said he would not answer any questions about marijuana use. The only time cocaine is mentioned in either article is when CNN mentions polling results. Put that all together and you come up with GWB ‘stated he had not used cocaine since 197?’ Quite a stretch! You’ve a hell of an imagination.

 

Whether he used cocaine or not, I really don’t care. It’s you inclination to create you own ‘truths’ that intrigue me. Or as I said you’re prone to MISINTERPERTING things. And you say I fit facts to my beliefs. My belief are based on facts, yours seem based on fantasy and prejudices.

 

Here is the link you asked for to Senate Intelligence Committee’ s report.

http://fas.org/irp/congress/2004_rpt/ssci_iraq.pdf

 

Unlike the links you provided, you’ll find this one actually corresponds to the statements I made.  Pay particular attention to where they say the former ambassador’s (Joe Wilson) report bolster the case that Iraq was seeking uranium.  Also worth noting is the part that says they were they suspicious of the documents provided by the Italian journalist from day one, and that they didn’t rely on that information. That’s right near where it says in late 2002 the French said they had information on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Niger.  Hope that doesn’t burst your bubble.

 

With all that, you choose to believe the utterly discredited Wilson. You really are the Energizer Bunny of misinformation.

 

You can pontificate on economics all you wish. What do I know; I’m only a SVP at a brokerage firm. A fact is you said, “deficits drive up interests rates.” A fact is through the 80’s as our deficit rose interest rate fell, plummeted actually. So, perhaps there is more to the US economy then socialist like you understand. That might explain why socialist economies have fared so well around the world. Who’s left? Cuba and North Korea?

 

Another misconception you appear labor under is that social security has something do with taxing the rich. The separate social security tax tops out at around $95,000. So that tax applies only to a small potion of the RICH’s income and not at all to their investment income. A keen economist like you surely understands how manipulation of John Edwards income to investment return allowed him to avoid over ½ million dollars in Medicare tax.

 

After obscenely referring to Sec Rumsfeld, you provide a link show the Sec and Saddam together. Are you implying Saddam is a terrorist? You’d be the first liberal to do so, well at least since Clinton left office. Your reference to the Secretary again shows what class you have. Even more so then your referring to me as an idiot or a ‘shit head,’ or ‘fascist.’  Liberal – ad hominems see how they go together.

 

Kerry was supporting the troops in the 70’s? I assure you that you won’t find many Vietnam veterans who feel that way.  You also say Kerry put his ass on the line? The ONLY thing he ever volunteered for was to get his ASS out. But to some he his a hero and he has a place of honor in Hanoi to prove it.

 

You asked what I would have done with North Korea, I haven’t a clue.  It’s not my job. But I know that appeasement has never worked. And if you think agreeing to allow the North Korean to go unmonitored while they developed nuclear weapons is “negotiating a lasting solution” then you less capable of thought than even indicated by your posts. Let’s see the Powell quote on the agreement working. Sounds like another MISINTERPERTATION or imaginary quote again. By the way, you really should try to clean up your language. Your statements are offensive enough without you repeated unnecessary obscenity. Surely, you learned to express yourself in a better fashion at MC. Maybe not, you seemed not to have learned how to recognize fact from fantasy.

 

On Somalia, Try to find what Bin Laden has said about the US running from Somalia. Is he a Neocon?

 

Apparently, you have an obsession with reefing to proven liars, first Wilson now Clark. What serious indications does he claim to have been aware of pre 911?

 

Again, apologies to Webguy, but again we have an affirmation of Reagan’s observation,

 

“…the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.”

 

Such as Iraq never tried to buy uranium in Africa; unmonitored neuclear weapons development by North Korea is ‘lasting solution.’ (Probably everlasting); that obscenities are acceptable vocabulary for this message board; that Bin Laden wasn’t emboldened by Somalia; that President Bush ever made a statement regarding his use or lack there of, of cocaine; and on and on………..


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laguna_b

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Reply with quote  #87 
My words that were "obscene" by your standards, do no harm. Your policies and your distortions of reality do violence not only to the truth but lead us to grave dangers. You show yorself willing to accept the most ludicrous of  situations and use denial to avoid accepting the crap that we now have as a substitute for a government. You posit that things leading to peace are appeasement then you rattle your nukes. Let me tell you that path will lead to our destruction. We have the targets. No country is more target rich than us. There is no target you can destry to stop vengence seeking terrorists that are being generated daily by your arrogant lying allies that you defend. When there is no Social Security trust left, when China calls in the notes gone worthless by the world denominating oil in Euros, I hope a big SVP like you goes down hard and fast. Because you have earned it. It is the rest of us and those less fortunate that I fear for.
I could have gone into far more detail last night on my cites but I was missing a great Friday night in Paris to try to educate a self deluded guy who wasn't even educatable by opening his eyes. I give up. Your half witted chimp iwas a model citizen and student, successful busnessman, truth teller who god speaks to daily and tells him to go to war in HIS name. Yes John, you are so right. Maybe Chimpie can call you as a character witness in the penalty phase of his impeachement next year.


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Reply with quote  #88 
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A bill that would make it a crime to take a pregnant girl across state lines for an abortion without her parents' knowledge passed the Senate Tuesday.
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TerrencePTuffyLSA69

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Reply with quote  #89 
B.J. Since the "censor" won't let me answer in the "Current" forum I'll try to answer your questions here. Hope this one doesn't get locked too. One caveat, I am telling you what I know the Church teaches as objective Truth. We all make mistakes, so if I were you and really wanted to know and confirm what I say, you may want to check with someone a lot smarter than I. Like Father Edward at OnceCatholic.org.
Also, you as a product of Catholic education, should remember some of the stuff.

Quote:
What is the Bible's position on homosexuality? Is there a position on pedophile homosexuality? On pedophilia itself?

The Catholic Church teaches all sex outside the state of marriage is sinful. So the law is applied to straights as well as gays.

Quote:
Don't the same Priests who teach and preach adherence to the principles of the Bible follow the course? Or, like most professions, are there some who revile their profession and commit sins/crimes against both God and man?

Yes.

Quote:
When the teachers fail to follow their own teachings, are we to condem the actions of the students who follow suit?

When the truth is learned it would be stupid for them to continue to do wrong.

Quote:
Why is it humane to end the life of a suffering animal, but not a suffering human?

An animal has less value than a human being. Would you want me to shoot you if you broke your leg?

Quote:
Life is the most precious gift there is.

That's right and should take precedent over any "right to choose".

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But ,what of the life that cannot see, feel, comprehend, sense or exist unless it is kept alive by machine and drug therapy? Is that really a life? Or, is it man playing God, by circumventing His plan and keeping that life artificially alive in the name of humanity and medicine?

Natural conception to natural death is what the Church teaches. Ever REASONABLE effort should be made to prolong life. Science, at times, may cloud what is reasonable. We pray that we will never have to make that decision, or, if we do, that we will be strong enough to do what's best for the patient.

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The Bible was written using the morals and ideals of the times. Written by men who were interpreting God's wishes,

I can go along with that.

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in their own beliefs and opinions,
Nope, they should have left those out.

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based on the accepted morals of their times. Technology has surpassed all conceivable thoughts these people had, thus needs adjusting.

OK, That's why we have Ecumenical Councils and the like. OK

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We can debate the issue until the next century, but by then our own thoughts will have been rendered moot by science and technology. By then, a woman won't need to get pregnant at all, just go to the "Baby Store" and pick out the artificially conceived and produced child of her choice. Right now, there are programs to tweak the genetics of babies in the womb. It certainly interferes with the original plan God had for it.

The Church will still be teaching - Natural Conception to Natural Death. I suggest you read Pope Paul VI's Humane Vitae. Then get back to me.

Quote:
Is this any more proper than aborting a child who will never have a chance at a fulfilling life?

No, it's not.

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Abortion is, and should remain, a woman's choice.

I disagree because of all the reasons I have post on this thread.

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BobJohnston

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Reply with quote  #90 

"Do what's best for the patient", your words and while pointing toward turning off life support equipment, can also be seen as aborting the fetus.  Same result, the end of a life right?

In that opinions and beliefs should have been left out, you are interjecting yours here.  While it wasn't right for the writers of the Bible to do this, nor is it right for yourself.

The councils and Pope's Humane Vitae are again opinions and decisions from men, based on their interpretations.

Human life being more valuable?  To whom, humans?  We do not know what level of conciousness animals possess.  EVERY life has value. Remember the line, "All God's creatures, great and small"?  This is why we treat injured animals and attempt to save them.  Some, as Barbaro (since you used this injury as an example), are gravely injured by a broken leg and euthanasia is the proper thing.  Like the decision to turn off life support.  Life support is an artificial method of prolonging life.  A life that would naturally have ended without interference.  God's path, plan of natural selection.  Life is a circle with a beginning and an end.  Your teachings of natural conception and natural death become clouded when using artificial means to continue a life, or in beginning one for that matter (artificial insemination).

  One of many problems I've had with my Catholic upbringing and lessons.  There are more than a few contradictions in what was taught and what occurs.  Faith tells us to believe God's got a plan for each of us and that we will follow His path until returning home to Him.  Man is not perfect and will trip at times, but this is known and accepted by God.  Unless breaking God's laws, we should all find ourselves entering Heaven at the end of this life.  Yet, the laws of man sometimes contradict this.  Is divorce and remarriage wrong?  Are those who remarry, or marry a divorcee adulterers?  The Bible's writers would have us believe it is and we are.  The laws of man allow for this to occur.  I am married to a divorcee.  Am I an adulterer?  In the eyes of the church, I'm not married, since it was a civil ceremony.  If we were to divorce, I could get married in the church since I haven't been before?  One of those contradictions I mentioned.

Have you ever attended a Promise Keepers convention?  I'm led to believe these men of strong belief and faith follow the calling of women being second class to them.  Why is this?  Why can't women be Priests?  Why can't Priests marry?  Does the Bible say this?  Then if so, why are only Catholics following this path?  You'll suggest I speak to a Priest, but why not a Minister, or Rabbi?  When you can answer the questions arising from your position, then interjecting your opinions and beliefs will have more validity.  Just saying because the church says it's right or wrong, is not a viable arguement for me.  The church is not infallible and neither are it's positions/teachiings.


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